Caroline Bowler Discusses BTC Markets and Crypto Trends

0:00 Chris Titley: You're listening to a Day One FM show.

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1:34 Speaker D: Hi, it's Chris Tittley here as part of the Fintech Fun podcast series. I'm joined by Caroline Bowler from BTC Markets. Caroline, thank you so much for being part of this series.

1:43 Chris Titley: Thank you so much for having me.

1:45 Speaker D: Caroline, let's talk about BTC and a little bit about your background and how the two intertwine and what BTC is.

1:51 Chris Titley: Yeah, brilliant. So it's now 11 years in existence, which in crypto terms means it's an OG, which is quite something in any market. So very proud of that. Based here predominantly in Melbourne, though we have got cast and crew members scattered across Australia, but it's predominantly Australian and our clients are Australian too. My background is international finance. Used to work for a private client stockbroker in Dublin and then moved to a US investment bank in Dublin and then in Singapore. I spent about 10 years in Singapore, which I loved. But when I was there, I set up my own business doing strategy and PR, comms for fintech and blockchain businesses, which back in 2013, 2014, something like that, it was all incredibly new. Fintech itself was very new, let alone blockchain, which was just this kind of like subset within it. But I cut my teeth there. And BTC Markets were one of my Australian clients. Yeah. And once I sold the business, I was permanently in Melbourne. I got a call one day and asking, would I be interested in having a conversation about the CEO role? So, that's now, yeah, 5 years ago, it'll be 5 years in January that I started, which also I think kind of puts me near an OG status.

3:05 Speaker E: Yeah.

3:06 Chris Titley: I'm still here and I've got all the gray hairs to prove it, though my hairdresser will never tell. But yeah, so, we've been around that long. And what we often get told by so many people is, Oh, you were like the first exchange I used to get into crypto, which we're very pleased about, that kind of the early adopters trusted us with their, I suppose, coming on-ramp into this whole new ecosystem of finance and what it means. And we're very grateful for those as well. Because what we find, and I'd somehow refer to us as like the designated driver of Australian crypto. Yeah, we're sober behind the wheel, but we're going in the same direction. And what we find is that in times of market upheaval or certainly some of the very— how to find the words—

3:51 Speaker D: Volatile or—

3:53 Chris Titley: Yeah, let's call it volatile. Say for example, when FTX—

3:57 Speaker D: Major news.

3:58 Chris Titley: Yeah, that made the news. That's a better way of putting it. Anyway, when that happened, what we found is that people flooded back to BTC Markets. So when I say that designated driver, we are kind of viewed as being this oasis of security And I think we think we're considered helpful. I think our clients like that we're helpful and stable and omnipresent in the Australian ecosystem. So we're very pleased with that and we take that very seriously, our role within the Australian crypto ecosystem.

4:28 Speaker D: And Caroline, there's been a lot of offshore players and you've seen some naming rights and sponsors of stadiums around the world with crypto exchanges. How important is it for you to say that we're Australian-owned and Australian-operated?

4:40 Chris Titley: Well, I think it's probably more important to Australian crypto users or people who are looking at digital assets more broadly. And certainly we can see the convergence. The trend is traditional finance is merging with crypto. And I know there are many who kind of rebuff that, but that is absolutely the trend. And that trend is coming from traditional finance. It's not necessarily coming from crypto. But to your question, the importance of those big names coming into the Australian market is great because it tells us that there's something vibrant and worthwhile within the Aussie market. And certainly giving Australians choice is really, really important. And that's the same in any marketplace. But particularly if you look at that flattening between traditional and crypto, it's really good to see those— the technology and the insights from the international moving in here, because it's going to be increasingly global. And that's probably an issue more for the regulators than it is for the practitioners within the business. But as I say, we've seen a lot of the internationals come and go, and we know about the challenges kind of, with some of those international firms. And as I say, our clients have stayed with us and stayed loyal. So to that point, I think for the Australians, great to have choice, great to have a range of different products and services, but we haven't seen an exodus by any stretch of the imagination to the international partners, which I think is probably surprising for some of those international partners. I certainly suspect that they thought that the Aussie market would be one that they could just ride into and scoop it all up and make off with all the goodies. Mm-hmm. But I don't think they understand understand necessarily the full psyche of an Australian marketplace and what it is that Australians really value. And I think that there is probably a greater sense of supporting the local team and backing yourselves in that sense than perhaps was fully understood by some of the internationals coming into this market. This isn't some way like the Aussies are smart and they can read through, pardon the expression, but they can read through the bullshit and they know, you know, kind of where's the reliable place to invest? And we know we're not the only Australian option out there, just wanna make that point, but certainly that's what we've seen from the behavior.

6:52 Speaker D: Carolyn, you talked about some similarities to traditional finance and coming from a stockbroking background and investment bank background, what parallels do you see in terms of timing in the future? Do you see a lot of sort of similarities to where the digital assets can go?

7:06 Chris Titley: Yeah, absolutely. If I may, on that point, I've done a lot of travel this year. I've been in Europe, the US, across Southeast Asia, and I've got more travel to come. Oh, and, and the UAE. And as I say, more travel to come. And one of the trends that came through, as I said, was about how this move toward digital assets is coming from traditional finance. I was in Zurich at a banking conference, effectively, uh, with the bank regulators from around the world were all descending into Zurich as they do on an annual basis now to talk about these new technologies. Digital assets, AI, et cetera, et cetera. And I sat in the room and listened to institutions like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, UBS, Citibank, the list goes on, talk about not just proof of concept, but talking about the live product they have in market using blockchain technology. They are absolutely driving this push forward into digital assets, into what's known as real-world assets, which is a bit of a clunky title, but basically it's saying that they're moving, your T-bills, your stock certificates and so forth, which were dematerialized and are now moving them into a digital format. And without aging myself, one of the first projects I worked at in that stockbroker was the dematerialization of stock certificates. Mm-hmm. So I do remember the day where we go from paper to binary and now we're moving into fully digital on exchange, on blockchain rather. And so when I talk about that convergence and I talk about where it's being driven from, it's being driven from financial services. They see the opportunity, they see the benefit, and they're rolling it out. And it's not just some thought pieces or some white papers, it's actual reality. So for us here in Australia, that throws down a gauntlet because certainly if you look at, say, the super fund industry, which is, I think, you know, $1 trillion or $3 trillion, something unbelievable in terms of amounts of money, that whole industry is moving on-chain. That whole industry is gonna have to move on-chain because that is the direction that it's been taken overseas. And so the question for Australia then is how quickly are we going to catch up and how quickly can we start embracing this technology for the benefit of everyday Aussies? We certainly don't want to be behind the eight ball on this one.

9:22 Speaker D: When it comes to mainstream adoption, and we've obviously seen some mainstream moments over the last 5, 10 years when it comes to digital assets and cryptocurrency, Do you think there's a sort of that, as you talked about, an institutional component that comes through and enterprises starting to use, you know, T-bills and Treasury departments using cryptocurrency and digital assets that will probably filter down into sort of a trust from a mainstream retail moment?

9:48 Chris Titley: Yeah, absolutely. And here's the thing too, like, this hasn't come— this isn't top-down, this is bottom-up. I think that certainly here in Australia this movement has been despite the hurdles and the conversations and the narrative that are out in the industry or outside of the industry, but around what blockchain is about and crypto and digital assets. Despite all of that, as I said, like Australians are savvy, they can read between the lines, like they can understand what's going on in terms of what this technology can do.

10:18 Speaker E: Yeah.

10:19 Chris Titley: And I think they're the ones who have been driving it. And that's the same around the world. It's this utility, it's this ease, it's being able to, appreciate the benefits of what this tech can do. And that's, that's what's pushed it forward because, you know, this certainly wasn't something, you know, even 5 to 10 years ago, JP Morgan absolutely weren't touching this stuff in the bank world. No, no, no. But what we've also found too, I mean, certainly this is only my view and this isn't fact-based at all in that sense, but we know that CBA were looking to do crypto trading. I know that they had that pilot project that they had and we've seen ANZ have been looking at a stablecoin project. I think it's safe to assume, and obviously we saw NAB moving in now with crypto custody through Zodia. And I think what we're seeing is that the banks here locally are absolutely looking at this technology. And whether or not they're being public about all that they're doing with the technology, I don't know.

11:16 Speaker D: Mm-hmm.

11:17 Chris Titley: But I certainly know that people within the major financial institutions in Australia, there are definitely people who are interested in it and who are actively looking to pursue opportunities for their respective employers, bank employers within that. But a lot of it is to do with the narrative that still pervades around what this technology is, which is a fixation and a focus around human behavior as opposed to a fixation and focus around what this technology can do. The tech is neutral. It doesn't do anything.

11:46 Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

11:46 Chris Titley: What the humans are doing around it. And as I said, given the size of the fund industry here and knowing which way the wind is blowing very heavily here in Melbourne this morning, but knowing the way the wind is blowing, We have to get across this as a country. It's just too important to fail.

12:01 Speaker D: And getting across as a country and also getting across as a company, do you want to talk about what BTC are doing currently and what sort of some innovations or products that people are looking for?

12:11 Chris Titley: Yeah, absolutely. I think without getting too ahead of ourselves, because I can't make any big announcements yet, but I know that we are actively looking at opportunities with regards to staking. That's one of the things that we are actively looking at. I think we want to offer our Pātiosi an opportunity to take crypto beyond just buying and selling, beyond that just trading activity, because there is a lot more coming with it. And we are very keen to make sure that Australians are well placed to take advantage of some of those innovations as they come through. And we're also very pleased with that because we are Australian-based, like all our tech is here, the custody is here. Like we can be, I suppose, very tailored to this market.

12:54 Speaker E: Yeah.

12:54 Chris Titley: But what we are also doing as well to kind of open that up is we are looking at the UAE, at Abu Dhabi in particular, for licensing. It's a rather clunky term, but effectively it will give us the opportunity to trade both cryptocurrency but also hopefully real-world assets down the line. But we'll wait and see on that one. But that's the plan certainly for where we are at the moment. As I say, you know, we see very clearly where the trend line is going, and we want to make sure that we're well-placed for here in Australia and overseas to really take advantage of that.

13:29 Speaker D: And Caroline, when you talk about staking, is that being consumer and customer driven, or is that what other exchanges are doing? Can you talk about that a little bit?

13:38 Chris Titley: I know this may sound a little counterintuitive, but I don't necessarily listen to what other exchanges are doing. I listen to what our customers want.

13:44 Speaker C: Yep.

13:44 Chris Titley: That's the only feedback that matters to me. I think after 5 years you learn there's an awful lot of, if I may, an awful lot of bullshit in the industry and a lot of smoke and mirrors from other players. I'm not talking necessarily about Hinoshare, but I'm talking about the industry in such a—

14:00 Speaker D: Broadly speaking, yeah.

14:01 Chris Titley: Broadly speaking. And so, you know, certainly in the bull market, your head spins because there was so much activity and so much stuff going on all over the place that you can almost lose sight of yourself. But for us, it's like listening to client feedback. We reach out to our clients on a regular basis to take on board what it is that they want and how we can help build that. So it's client feedback that wants to do more with their crypto assets than just buy, sell, hold. They want to explore the utility of it and we are very excited to help them do that.

14:32 Speaker D: Before we get onto a personal question about your hobbies and what you get into in your spare time, I'm curious about the numbers of different cryptocurrencies. We saw an explosion a few years ago. How's that gone from a, I suppose a market point of view now.

14:46 Chris Titley: Yeah, so I mean, here's the thing. The predominant amount of trading still happens in Bitcoin and Ethereum. Maybe top 3, Bitcoin, Ethereum, maybe XRP. Those are the predominant ones. Stablecoins are another, like USDC, USDT, or USDT in particular, so better known as Tether. Those are the main utility, the main traded tokens. So all the rest of them are absolutely busy. I mean, Solana and so forth has seen it, but if you're looking at volume, Those are the most voluminous that we've seen historically. That will change, I'm sure, as time evolves. And so for us as a business, we've looked at that obviously because that's— we know there's client demand in that, we know there's liquidity in that, and we've added tokens as we've gone along. Our main concern though, given the environment that we're in at the moment from a regulatory point of view, is to make sure that we don't list any financial products. And so we have been extremely conservative on our listings. And that has been a purposeful decision to keep it as conservative as possible, to make sure that we stay within the lines as they currently exist. And let's see how that evolves once we get some regulation in place, likely to be in the next government cycle is our expectation that we'll start to see some legislation come through. So that's our plan so far is just, as I say, kind of stay within those lines, but look at the liquidity, look at where the volume is and put those up on the platform for people.

16:13 Speaker D: And Carolyn, you've been running BTC for 5 years now, and a lot of people have seen you speak at different fintech events and crypto events, etc. But there's some listeners out there that might want to know a little bit about you and what you do in your downtime. Is there any sort of secret hobby that you get up to that others don't know about?

16:27 Chris Titley: Secret hobbies. So like, I think anyone— I'm, I'm in my mid-forties. I'm 45. I'm not mid-forties. I am 45.

16:35 Speaker D: I'm early forties.

16:38 Chris Titley: So, and I live how anybody else who's 33 lives at this point in life. I was in bed last night at half past 9, just so we're clear.

16:46 Speaker D: Right.

16:46 Chris Titley: This is the rock and roll, I guess, 'cause you're exhausted. But what I do do is cooking, baking in particular.

16:54 Speaker E: Gosh, okay.

16:55 Chris Titley: I'm not a particularly gifted baker, but I do enjoy it. So it's very, it's almost like chemistry, like trying to get a cake to rise or bread to rise, whatever it is. There's a lot of science behind it. Um, so I enjoy that and my family enjoy it too, particularly since I'm working my way through a cake book at the moment. And so they're enjoying that. We had for Father's Day yesterday, we had a strawberry rhubarb cake that went down a treat with a load of cream. I may recommend. I think every cake baker has got a whole pot of cream in there or his or her fridge that they then pour all over because it covers up a multitude of sins.

17:32 Speaker D: So you, you're going to be the one where people have birthday parties and they're going to ring you up and say, oh, would you mind? You're like, I'm kind of busy right now.

17:38 Chris Titley: No, don't ring me, don't ring me. This is why I don't tell anyone. Don't ring me, no, please don't, no.

17:45 Speaker D: And your favorite challenge as a cake? Is there one that you like go, wow, I didn't think I was gonna get through this, but then I was like, hello, we've done this, you know, take some photos.

17:52 Chris Titley: So my mum does this absolutely amazing chocolate, it's like a gigantic chocolate Swiss roll that's just oozing yumminess and richness. I would never be so brave as to try and copy that one.

18:07 Speaker D: To attempt it, yes.

18:08 Chris Titley: That one's step too far, it's just too far. So instead, I do this other one where it's lemon and almond meal and— Really good.

18:17 Speaker D: Not as chocolatey, but still very delicious.

18:20 Chris Titley: No, and it's super delicious. And it's got a— and you use Greek yogurt through it. So it's really light. It's terribly indulgent. I absolutely love it. It goes down a treat. It went down so well last Christmas that I ended up making two in rapid succession because the first lot was devoured so quickly that I had to make a second batch. Oh, wow. Highly recommended.

18:38 Speaker D: On that note, I better, it's morning tea here. It's time, I feel hungry now after all that chat. But Caroline, thank you so much for giving the listeners out there a bit of an understanding about your background as well as BTC, the current trends and progress as a company that you've made, and also the future inroads ahead with some particular products and things that might come out in the future or should catch up. And also your cake making habits. So I really appreciate that and look forward to catching up.

19:02 Chris Titley: Thanks, Chris. Thank you very much.

19:04 Speaker E: Listen to the Unfunded Podcast, brought to you by the Day One Network and hosted by me, tech writer Joan Westenberg. We're sharing the no-holds-barred untold stories from entrepreneurs who have decided to build a business on their terms. I'll be interviewing successful founders and operators on the grit and ingenuity it takes to build and scale independent startups without the support of traditional venture capital funding. Subscribe to the Unfunded Podcast now, wherever you get your podcasts.