Exposing the Gaps in Women’s Healthcare | Sally Hasler

0:00 Frances Goh: We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we record and pay our respects to their elders past and present. We recognize their continuing connection to land, waters, and culture.

0:10 Makenzie Thomas: The NUScript is a podcast created for educational and awareness-raising purposes only. The conversations you'll hear are not intended as medical advice. Please speak with a qualified healthcare professional for any personal medical concerns or decisions.

0:26 Sally Hasler: Women's health is having a moment. There's a real spotlight on equity in healthcare and women's women's health, but the reality is conversations come and go and spotlights come and go. We have to use this opportunity to embed change and to embed reform. We need to capitalise on it. So in 10 years, I hope that Women's Health Victoria has used this moment in time to change the system for the good, and we look back and go, Yep, in 2025, Women's Health was having a moment, and as a result of that, we did this, this, this, and this. And that's changed the system forever.

1:07 Makenzie Thomas: Welcome to the very first episode of The New Script. We're so excited to be coming to your ears today with our first interview and recording. I'm Mackenzie.

1:19 Frances Goh: And I'm Fran. And we are two friends who bonded over a shared passion for women's health, technology and a belief that things can and should be done differently. Between us, we've spent years immersed in the world of startups, innovation, wellness, and advocacy, and we know that we're not the only ones craving deeper conversations, smarter solutions, and a space to explore what's next and what should be. So we started The New Script, and we love this name because we feel it works on multiple levels, capturing the essence of what this podcast is all about. Firstly, being medical and health connection. So in healthcare, a script is shorthand for prescription, and since we'll be diving into the latest innovations in women's health, from femtech to medical breakthroughs, it felt like the perfect nod to wellness and care. We're also passionate about rewriting the narrative, or the script, because for too long medicine and research have centered on male biology. Often leaving women misdiagnosed, misunderstood, or missing from the data altogether. And so the new script represents that change.

2:36 Makenzie Thomas: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. And when you came up with the name, I was so excited. It fits so perfectly. So this week we're sitting down with Sally Hasler, the CEO of Women's Health Victoria. And when we were listing out potential guests and brainstorming who we could have some great conversations with, Sally came up, and I was so excited when she said yes because she's a leader in gender equity in healthcare And this conversation really provides a lot of context for a lot of the conversations that we will be having with different people. And it really speaks to some of the gaps that exist in our healthcare system today, how they've developed over time, and then also how they impact the care that women and gender diverse people receive today that really impacts healthcare outcomes and ultimately lives.

3:21 Frances Goh: One of my favourite things from Sally's conversation was all the new terms that she was using that I hadn't heard before. And one of the most interesting terms that she used, which I learned and hadn't heard before, was medical misogyny. And I learned that that is where women and gender-diverse people experience discrimination or prejudice within the healthcare system, but it's not on purpose and it's not deliberate, but it's just an outcome of the way the system has been funded over time, the way— Mm-hmm. Practitioners have been trained and how pain in the industry is understood and diagnosed and the way that that impacts people's lives. And I thought that that was really eye-opening.

4:04 Makenzie Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. And I loved, um, the other term she said, below the bikini line health, which specifically refers to anything like below— I mean, below the bikini line, says itself. But this has just become more evident because with this podcast, we don't only want to speak about things related to vaginas and breasts and the physiological elements that make women different from men, but also to things like, yeah, chronic pain, as you mentioned, or how we look at clinical trial research. And then other elements like right from heart attacks to asthma and how these experiences differ from women. So there's a lot within that space. And Sally's conversation really gives us a great starting point to begin to understand and learn more about it.

4:49 Sally Hasler: 100%.

4:50 Makenzie Thomas: Well, we're very excited to get into it, so without further ado, let's dive in.

4:57 Sally Hasler: You're listening to a Day One FM show.

5:01 Frances Goh: We are so excited to be kicking off with our very special guest, Sally Hasler. We wanted to start this series by setting the scene, looking at the broader landscape of women's health today and the systemic shifts that need to happen if we're going to see real change. So we're thrilled to have Sally Here with us to go through a lay of the land. But to kick off with, I'd love to share a little bit about Sally. Sally is a seasoned leader with over 15 years experience advancing gender equality and health, spanning executive, board, and volunteer roles. She held key leadership positions across the Victorian and Commonwealth governments, the Fred Hollows Foundation, and the Women's Foundation in Hong Kong. Most recently, Sally served as a director in the Office for Women in the Victorian government. She brings deep expertise in gender and health policy, strategy, and inclusive partnerships, and has successfully led major government programs and multi-sector collaborations. Now CEO of a leading health organization, Sally also serves on the Victorian Government Women's Health Advisory Council, the Cancer Advisory Committee, and the Mental Health Ministerial Advisory Committee. She's a non-executive director of Lifeline Direct and a longtime volunteer with St. John Ambulance. Wow, Sally, that is super impressive. We're so lucky to have you here with us, and I would love to invite you to share a little bit about yourself in your own words.

6:22 Sally Hasler: Thanks so much, Fran and Mackenzie, and nice to be with you today. I think you've pretty much summed it up, but I, I suppose Women's Health Victoria is a bit of a culmination of my career to date with a real focus on bringing together my background and passion and interest in social justice, particularly in education and health, and my commitment to gender equity and making sure that, that women and girls and gender diverse people have got opportunities available to them and an equal access to vital services in our community. So my career, I suppose, commenced in the Commonwealth Government in Australia, and I had a real, really great opportunity to work in a number of different social justice and social policy roles. I had a brief stint working at a women's foundation in Hong Kong after I moved there for a couple of years, and that really lit a fire in my belly around gender equity in particular and, and gender equality in workplaces, but also in, in healthcare settings and in education settings. And that led me to a role in the Victorian Government working in the Office for Women advising the Minister for Women. on gender equality policy in Victoria. But absolutely really excited about my current role I've been in for a little bit less than 12 months that really centres gender equity in health. And it's certainly— we're having a moment in time, which I'm sure we'll get to soon, but the importance of women's health has arguably never been more prominent in our public discourse.

8:01 Makenzie Thomas: Absolutely. And yeah, I'm really excited to dive in and hear more about it. Can you explain to listeners where the gaps within women's health exist and why women and gender diverse people face challenges in our healthcare system?

8:18 Sally Hasler: Absolutely. So I think typically when we talk about and we think about women's health, we think about things that might be specific to particularly cis women's anatomy, if you like. So we're thinking about particularly sexual and reproductive health, and that, that obviously is a super important area of healthcare that we need to make sure that, that women and gender diverse people can access. But increasingly, what we are shining a light on, on what evidence is proving, and many, many women are coming forward to talk about, is their experience in the system more broadly. And that is not specific to what we often call sort of below the bikini line women's health. And what we're seeing is that women are coming forward with lived and living experience to show that their symptoms have been dismissed or missed, and that might have led to not receiving the equitable care that they need in a timely way, receiving the wrong treatment, not being believed. And that's— that can be really tragic in the worst circumstances. And there's been a bit of media coverage about this just in the recent— in the recent week, actually, that's shown that some experiences in the healthcare system can lead to missed or delayed diagnoses, being prescribed antidepressants in order to address experiences of chronic pain, mental health misdiagnosis, and often that intersects with experiences of trauma or experiences of gendered violence. And the gender bias that we talk about more broadly in the healthcare system is leading to poorer health outcomes and certainly poorer experiences and sometimes, yeah, traumatisation and an ongoing engagement with the system in a pretty negative way. So, it's a real opportunity that we see for system reform and for really serious ongoing investment. And we're starting to see That certainly, there's been some really significant investment from the Victorian Government and some recently from the Commonwealth Government. But, and I'm happy to talk to this as well, we at Women's Health Victoria, we're very focused on what we call systems change or structural reform. And that's about how do we change the health system at its core to make sure that we're not dependent on those one-off funding announcements. Mm-hmm.

10:50 Makenzie Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, the classic example is, you know, the way we look at heart attacks where women actually have very different symptoms to male heart attacks. Um, so, and that has shaped our healthcare system for a long time about how we perceive, you know, the classic clutching of the chest, um, symptoms with that. And so there's— I'm sure there are many different examples within that space, and you already started to allude to some of them. To better understand that Could you talk to us about the different areas and ways in which this gender inequity presents itself in healthcare? And in my research on Women's Health Victoria, you talk about sort of 4 different areas. You talk about gender-blind health services, gender bias, medical misogyny, and social determinants of health. And so I'm really interested to, one, have those elements explained for our listeners, and then to talk a little bit about how Women's Health Victoria is starting to look at those different areas.

11:43 Sally Hasler: Yep. And in response to your— the question previously as well, I think it's good to think about the way that gender inequity experiences health in 3 ways. One of those is things that are specific to anatomy. One of those is looking at medical conditions or illnesses that are experienced disproportionately or at a higher rate in women. And an example of that might be osteoporosis or autoimmune disease. And then the third, I suppose, category, if you like, is health conditions that are experienced differently by women. And the example that you gave about heart attacks and heart disease is a good example there, that that disease manifests differently in women. So to your points around the different, I suppose, terms, if you like, when we're describing discrimination in the health system, Gender-blind health services, I think probably the best way to describe that is most health services aren't set up in a way to respond to the specific needs of women and gender-diverse people. And that's because they're built on a one-size-fits-all approach that primarily reflects male experiences of health and male health experiences and medical research that hasn't traditionally included women and gender diverse people. A practical example, I suppose, of this is GP appointments. There's been some announcement recently as part of the federal election campaign that we're in that bulk billing rates will be increased to make sure that there's a greater incentive for people to be able to access primary care and that GPs are appropriately remunerated to be able to provide that level of service. Mm-hmm. But the announcement that's been made provides additional funding to standard length consultations or shorter consultations and for those consultations that are based in the city. And lower funding for longer consultations. And that's an example, I suppose, of what you could call a gender-blind funding announcement in that it doesn't recognise that women are more likely to— Yeah. Require longer GP appointments because they're more likely to present with complex health conditions and things that really require those longer consultations. And so part of the advocacy that we've been doing with RACGP and AMA is to call for additional funding to expand those longer-term appointments as well. Gender bias in healthcare refers to when people are treated unfairly in the healthcare system because of their gender. And as I've talked about, that can happen as part of diagnosis or treatment research and leads to, to worse health outcomes. Often gender bias happens because of a lack of awareness or traditional norms or stereotypes about gender, and so it might not be deliberate. But for example, doctors might not be taking symptoms seriously because they perceive a female patient as overly emotional, and that's that's a result of very entrenched gender norms and stereotypes in our community and in the way that medicine is taught and understood. And there is some real, some very deep conscious and unconscious bias when it comes to looking at gender bias in healthcare. Medical misogyny, I suppose that's, it's a bit of a hot word at the moment. And the Fairfax Media actually has just ran a huge investigative series around medical misogyny, which is well worth linking in the, um, in the episode notes if that's possible. Uh, there was an incredible piece, um, every day over the weekend that we've just had. But medical misogyny, I suppose, is quite connected to gender bias in a way, and it's where, um, women and gender-diverse people experience discrimination or prejudice in the healthcare system. And like I said, it's often not deliberate. Um, it's, it can be, it's a result of a system, um, and the way that funding is delivered, the way that doctors are trained, the way that pain is understood and diagnosed, that means that women and gender diverse people are more likely to experience medical misogyny. And finally, social determinants of health, I suppose, is— it's really important to us at Women's Health Victoria because ultimately all our work is centered around equity. And social determinants of health recognizes that gender is one aspect that has a very big impact on people's health and wellbeing, but It also is compounded and intersects with people's access to income and education and job security and food security and housing and discrimination. And all of those things together are called the social determinants of health. And they intersect. And when you combine them with gender, it can lead to structural disadvantage and and much less and lower access to, to essential healthcare.

17:01 Frances Goh: Amazing, Sally, what an incredible overview, and you've absolutely provided an incredible lens to this landscape that so many of us need to have a better understanding of. So thank you for that. Through your experience in gender and health policy then, what do you feel are some of the biggest and most pressing gaps that need to be addressed?

17:20 Sally Hasler: I mean, for us again at Women's Health Vic, equity is our, is our heartland. If you live in a metropolitan area and have a high level of education and, you know, have an Anglo background and have a good job, then the reality is that your experience of healthcare is likely to be largely positive. You might, you know, be navigating that bias in the system that we've talked about, but that is significantly more difficult and compounded when you're experiencing inequity. And so I think For us, one of the biggest gaps is how do we support women and gender diverse people who are experiencing multiple barriers to access? So they don't speak English as a first language, they don't have a permanent visa in Australia, they might be living in a rural area, have low levels of health literacy, you have a disability. All of these things mean that it can be more difficult to access care, which I've shared. And particularly the work that we do around sexual and reproductive health and, and access to abortion and contraception, the number one issue for people that are contacting us is cost. And the biggest issue is people's ability to afford care. Sexual and reproductive healthcare is not well remunerated by the MBS, and it's not appealing for primary care providers to provide because there's no money to be made in it. And current access to medical abortion can range from $200 all the way, you know, to over $1,000 depending on the service that you're accessing care through and the barriers that you need. A lot of our callers have got healthcare and pension cards, and a lot of them are experiencing a cost of living pressures and access to access to care based on their ability to pay. And that's, again, that's worse for people that live in rural and regional areas. So there are obviously GP shortages in rural areas, and we speak to people who are experiencing those delays and can't get the care that they need, particularly if it's related to abortion and contraception, and they are experiencing those delays and obstructions. Mm-hmm. And can't get the pro-choice care that they need.

19:41 Frances Goh: And during our pre-chat today, before we went live recording the episode, we were also discussing about when some of those gaps in equitable care can be more subtle. Are you able to provide some examples of that and maybe some of the effects you see this having on women and gender-diverse people?

19:58 Sally Hasler: Yeah, I think some of the most, I suppose, concerning access to care that we see is around access to safe and affordable and appropriate abortion care. And abortion care is always time critical. You know, it's often people are contacting us to access care that are experiencing, you know, sometimes that are experiencing high levels of distress and concern and may or may not be able to access the care that they need.

20:31 Makenzie Thomas: Mm-hmm.

20:31 Sally Hasler: Abortion has been decriminalized in Victoria for a long time now, but the reality is that the nature of criminalization and stigma has meant that it is not considered mainstream healthcare. You know, we deliver a phone service called 1800 MY OPTIONS, and we get over 8,000 calls a year from people that are trying to access abortion and contraception care. And the reality is, is that you don't need to call a phone line to access care if you need a hip replacement or if you've got appendicitis. But for some reason you need to do that if you are one of four— one in four Australian women who will have an abortion at some point in their lifetime. So it is a really highly stigmatized health issue. And what we see is that even though it's legal, even though it's free, even though it should be available through our public system, is that it's not always the case. Not all GPs provide access to abortion, and obviously there are rules and there's legislation around conscientious objection, but sometimes the barriers that we see are quite subtle, and it might be about delaying or obstructing care. And it's not, it's not only GPs, there's, there's a very low number of public hospitals that provide access to surgical abortion in Victoria. So there's, I think it's about 60% of LGAs, or local government areas, in Victoria don't have a surgical abortion provider in them. And so people are traveling to access care if they live in one of those areas. And the challenges of those areas is they're often clustered together. And so if you, if you do live in what we sometimes call an abortion desert, there are other deserts, I suppose, that are clustered around you. And so you can have really drive a very far way to access that care. And then you might also be driving to another place to access the further treatment that you require. So you might need a GP referral, you might need a blood test, an ultrasound, and then access to the medication or the surgical abortion. And all of those things require you to go to different practitioners or different care providers sometimes. And sometimes you don't get the pro-choice care the first time that you deserve. And so people are— So speaking to 2 or 3 people or health providers depending on the care that they get. So absolutely, abortion in particular is legal in Victoria. And we, you know, Victoria is a leader in access to sexual and reproductive healthcare. The government's made huge investments. There's new SRH hubs, there's new women's health clinics, there's virtual women's health clinic, there's a mobile health clinic. And so there's a huge amount of good things going on. But the reality is, is that abortion care and access is still very tenuous, and that's definitely the case in other jurisdictions as well, in New South Wales and, um, and in other states and territories across Australia.

23:32 Frances Goh: Oh, that's a lot. That's a lot.

23:36 Makenzie Thomas: Um, but I mean, it's, it's the truth, right? And we were saying before that it's, you know, we think, okay, yep, it's decriminalized, amazing, we can move forward, but as we were saying, it's— there's always that threat, and that changes over time, right? That it could, it could shift, and based on the political landscape and a lot of other elements.

23:55 Sally Hasler: Well, that's right. I think we've seen recently internationally and even domestically in Australia, uh, not just access that I was talking about then, but actual threats to winding back abortion rights. And both, you know, South Australia and Queensland had —very recent discussions last year where politicians were seeking to wind back access to abortion and to effectively to put at question women's abilities to make decisions about their own bodies. And but, you know, it was a very, very close vote in the end that in South Australia in particular where that avoided—that didn't happen. And obviously, you know, we've seen in the US the reality of winding back Roe v. Wade and the tragic outcome that that's having for people living in some of the states in the US where abortion has been criminalized again. The reality of winding back access to abortion is that it doesn't stop abortions, it just prevents safe abortion care and it makes it more difficult and more expensive and more risky. Yeah. For, for women to access the care that they need.

25:07 Makenzie Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. And so options, um, options like 1800 MY OPTIONS programs that Women's Health Victoria run are really essential services and advocacy work that your organization does. And I loved what you said before about Equity is Our Heartland. And so I was hoping to shift gears a little bit. If you could talk us through, beyond Equity is Our Heartland, what are some of those initiatives that Women's Health Victoria are driving, and how do you work in that space to to help remove some of those barriers.

25:39 Sally Hasler: Absolutely. Women's Health Victoria is the statewide women's health service. We're a feminist service that really our vision is all around the pursuit of gender equity in health. So we work with the government, the health sector, and the community to create better health outcomes for women and gender diverse people. We do 3 main things. The first of those is delivering really vital support services like 1800 MY OPTIONS, Victoria's free confidential phone line and web service for abortion, contraception, and sexual health. We also deliver an incredible program for over 20 years called Counterpart, which is a peer support program for women living with cancer, and we— Peer support's provided by other women who have lived experience of cancer and really provide that non-clinical compassionate empathy and support that people navigating and experiencing cancer and living with cancer need. And we deliver great empowering health information. So you may have seen or heard about our incredible Labia Library, which celebrates the diversity of labia and shows that labia comes in all shapes and sizes. Mm-hmm. We're super proud of that, that online resource. It gets millions and millions of hits every year, and it really aims to focus on women and young women and girls who are, you know, feeling insecure or questioning or concerned about their labia and their anatomy. And there's lots of research to show that women and girls sometimes feel insecure or concerned about the shape of their labia and A big part of that work is all about breaking down the stigma and shining a light on diversity and celebrating bodies for what they are. The other things that we do at Women's Health Victoria in addition to services and health information are around building the evidence and recommendations to challenge bias in the health system. So we do a lot of research, a lot of translation of that research into practice. A lot of advocacy. And the third thing we do is we work with the health sector to achieve equitable health outcomes. So we, we build the capacity of the system to be gender responsive and to apply that gender lens.

28:08 Frances Goh: Love that. Such amazing resources and amazing initiatives. And something that you mentioned was the way that Women's Health Victoria works is by bringing together government, the health sector, and the community. So we'd love to know, what has it been like to bring all of these stakeholders together, and why is this approach so powerful?

28:27 Sally Hasler: Yeah, our work over the last 30 years has been as advocates, is, is that approach to collective advocacy. So bringing together, like you say, government, the health sector, and the community, particularly the sector and government. We have our two services, but most of our reach is to, is to work within the system as opposed to reaching women directly as like a health service provider. Would or a hospital, for example, would. But our approach to advocacy is that collective approach. And so how do we bring stakeholders together with one vision in mind that is all about moving the needle towards equity in healthcare? And the role that we like to play, I suppose, is as that— the not-for-profit or the advocate that comes in and says, there's a gap here. What is the gap? What does it tell us about the community need that hasn't been addressed? What's the evidence about that? What's lived experience say? What's the data say? Therefore, what is some of the solutions that we need to be looking at to be addressing? Who do we need to come along on that journey? And then how do we— how do we either put pressure on the government or the health sector or both to create a response that leads to a better outcome? And then hopefully we create a change or a systems change that means that that solution is embedded into the system. And so it's not dependent on a one-off funding program or a piece of funding that will end, and we can create that systems change that we really talk about at Women's Health Victoria and that's so vital to our advocacy.

30:11 Frances Goh: Mm-hmm.

30:12 Sally Hasler: When we do partner, our approach is very much as a critical friend. You know, we want to be able to have tough conversations with stakeholders in the sector, but in a way that brings people along. Because at the end of the day, to be able to drive change, we need to engage people and meet them where they're at and understand the different perspectives that people have and share the evidence that we have. That demonstrates that the gender bias in the health system is, is a really real problem and there's a huge opportunity to address it.

30:47 Makenzie Thomas: Absolutely. So Sally, it's really interesting to hear about all the work that Women's Health Victoria is, is doing in this space. As part of the conversation that we're having today, we also like to speak to the leaders and the innovators who are running these companies and building these businesses. And so as the CEO of Women's Health Victoria and having 15 years of experience in these kind of roles. How is your approach to running an organization, doing this advocacy work, how has that shifted over time, and what insights might you have for our listeners about leadership in this space?

31:23 Sally Hasler: Thanks, Mackenzie. I suppose I think this is my first CEO role. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's my first leadership role, but it's certainly my first role as CEO. And I, at the moment, I wake up every day and go, what am I going to learn today? Because it, it definitely feels like a very steep curve. And I think one of the things that I might not have thought that I would have said 15 years ago if I'd looked forward to, um, to now was that I'd still be learning so much every day. And I'm— I really regularly don't know the answer. Um, and I think, you know, I think for me that means always staying open to learning more and to changing your mindset around things and to genuinely having— it's a bit cliché, but genuinely having that sort of growth mindset. Because the nature of challenges in an advocacy role, in a role funded by government, in a role that's really affected by digital transformation and change, in a role that's very political at times, is that we need to be adaptive and responsive and flexible. And that means that— Yeah. We're always learning. So I suppose that's something that is in the front of my mind all the time, and I often say to myself, what am I missing here? What have I got wrong? What don't I understand? I think the advocacy point I talked a little bit about, but my approach to advocacy has changed over the last 10 years. I think if I, you know, looking back on some of the advocacy I did around, say, gender equity, um, when I was working in Hong Kong, I would have it would have been more from a position of, you know, I'll tell you what you need to know about gender equity that you didn't know. And I think that sort of, that is less appealing to stakeholders that may not be of your view yet or that might need to be convinced of the evidence. And so, again, meeting people where they're at is a really big part of my leadership style and thinking about, well, what are the things that are important to them? Where's the common ground that we can strike together? And I mean, I've always had a really strong focus on relationships and having people-centered roles and human-centered roles, and that having people at the heart of everything that I do and all the roles that I held, I always bring it back to why are we here, what are we doing, what's our vision in the community. And we've always got to have a look outside. Yes, it's important to look inside and make sure you've got the right team and you've got great smart people around you and always building that team. And moving together. But it's always, you know, again, you always think, why are we getting up in the morning? And it's to, it's to serve. For us, it's to serve and to support and to create change for, for women and gender diverse people in Victoria. And then lastly, I would say be very good at surrounding yourself with very smart people, because I think over the years I've realized how wonderful it is to just have incredible teams around you and then trusting those teams teams to, to do the great work that they, they can.

34:25 Frances Goh: Spoken like an amazing leader. And Sally, as CEO, you know, we've been talking about women's health in general, but for you personally, how do you prioritize your health and your energy?

34:39 Sally Hasler: I'm not amazing at that, to be honest, but I think I've got 3 young kids under 8, and so I think between, between working and, and 3 kids and supporting my family, it's always— it's a lot. But I do like fast pace and full days and exciting days. So I do actually enjoy the energy and the pace. I would say having come back from a good chunk of leave recently that having a really proper switch off is really important, and I'm not always good at doing that, but I did do it recently. I had a really good break and I turned every notification off and spent a really great week with my family, and it's that classic, you know, again cliché, but it's that classic thing that happens when you see problems differently. You, you know, identify new solutions. You come back with a fresher mindset, with more energy, with more enthusiasm because you've had that opportunity to recharge. And recently I've become a much bigger fan of sleep. I spent a long time not sleeping with young kids, and, and probably a long time before that working long hours and, and not sleeping. But I think I've, you know, done a little bit of reading and listening around, uh, sleep recently, and I am pretty non-negotiable on 7 hours now, as much as I can. Um, but again, I say that now having been through the worst of my— hopefully, touch wood— the worst of my non-sleep years with children. But it makes a huge difference to how I feel and to the clarity and the way that I see problems, and also the way that I embrace challenges when I have had a good sleep the night before.

36:22 Makenzie Thomas: Yeah, absolutely.

36:24 Frances Goh: Sleep is so underrated.

36:27 Makenzie Thomas: Yep, I agree. And I love— I feel like everyone I do speak to and ask, how do you prioritize your health, they always say, I'm not great at it, or I could do better. Um, but then they give us these great answers. So I love, I love that. And I love that you are prioritizing sleep. It's a good, good little nugget. So So now we're sort of leading into our round out questions for this conversation, but we wanted to know what's something within, I guess, the women and gender diverse people's advocacy space in healthcare that people aren't talking enough about?

36:57 Sally Hasler: I talked about it a bit already, but I think I can't really move away from access to abortion. There's been so much talk about women's health in the federal election campaign that we're in at the moment, and in the last 6 months, there's been really big women's health packages announced. There's been a really big— or there's been a response from the government on what's called the postcode lottery, or the Sexual and Reproductive Senate Inquiry, and the Menopause Inquiry. There's a lot of talk about, which is absolutely needed and well overdue, about menopause, about endometriosis, about contraceptions, and the— The The missing piece for us in terms of having a really holistic approach to mainstreaming sexual and reproductive care for all women is abortion. And it is continued to be stigmatized. And as long as we don't view it as mainstream healthcare, then the stigma continues and we continue to get health services that don't offer the service or health practitioners that aren't confident in delivering abortion care. So, you know, it's obviously, it's not going away in terms of the importance of having this front and center as an issue for Australian women. And it's under threat, as I've said, domestically and internationally. And we need to make sure that it is mainstreamed and that all public hospitals that are providing maternity care, it's a standard part of maternity care services, that hospitals are required to meet population-based health needs, and that includes, includes care, abortion care.

38:38 Frances Goh: 100%, we couldn't agree more, Sally. And if we were to fast forward 10 years, what do you hope Women's Health Victoria has achieved or changed?

38:47 Sally Hasler: Oh, it's a good question. Um, I think for us, we are really serious about embedding, um, the systems change. So As I've said a number of times, women's health is having a moment. There's a real spotlight on equity in healthcare and women's health. But the reality is, unfortunately, that conversations come and go and spotlights come and go. And we have to use this opportunity to embed change and to embed reform because At the moment, there is a strong focus on it by some governments, but that's not going to exist forever. And the investment's not going to exist forever. We've seen different focuses on mental health, on gender-based violence. Those issues are far from solved. Tragedies are continuing every day, but there is less investment than there has been when there were peaks of reform. That were happening. And so we're seeing this peak of reform opportunity in women's health. We need to capitalize on it. So in 10 years, I hope that Women's Health Victoria has used this moment in time to change the system for the good, and we look back and go, yep, in 2025, women's health was having a moment, and as a result of that, we did this, this, this, and this, and, and that, that, that's changed the system forever.

40:15 Makenzie Thomas: Absolutely. And I know we're talking about changing the system, but we do always like to end our discussion on one question, which is, if you could rewrite the script on women's health, what is one thing that you would change? So maybe take us to a more granular level. I'll give you a little scope of work within that. What's one thing that you would rewrite, uh, within the healthcare system?

40:36 Sally Hasler: I think including, uh, women's bodies in medical research and drug trials would be a pretty good way to improve healthcare. I think women's bodies have not been studied in medical research. The reality is, is that the, the evidence that healthcare is based on is based on male Caucasian standard body, and that's seen as the default. And as a result, like you said before, the symptoms and, and illnesses that we often see that are experienced by women are missed because they don't they don't follow the script that's been written. And drug trials have not always included women participants. Even drugs for women's bodies weren't tested necessarily on women's bodies. The National Health and Medical Research Council for Australia still doesn't require sex and gender in medical research. It's a best practice or it's encouraged, but it's not a requirement. And so if we were to rewrite the script, then— Yeah. We'd include women in medical research from the very beginning.

41:46 Makenzie Thomas: Absolutely. It's a great place to start and a much-needed one. So thank you so much, Sally. It's been a really insightful conversation. I feel like we've covered a lot and deep-dived into many different areas of your expertise, but more broadly where we can start to see change in the healthcare system. So thank you so much for joining us. It's been fantastic.

42:05 Sally Hasler: No, thank you for having me.

42:09 Frances Goh: Thanks for listening to The New Script. If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review if you're feeling generous.

42:19 Makenzie Thomas: We'd love to hear your thoughts, feedback, or guest suggestions. Drop us a line at hello@thenewscriptpodcast.com.

42:25 Frances Goh: This podcast was proudly produced by Day One, the podcast network for founders, operators, and investors. Learn more at dayone.com. FM. Until then, keep rewriting the script.