Andrew Nunn believes Australian states and territories should work cooperatively rather than competitively

0:00 Adam Spencer: Let me tell you about our partner, Teamified. If you need to build a top-notch team quickly, Teamified is your go-to solution. They not only provide fractional CTOs, they can also do contractors and even remote team members tailored exactly to your needs. And whether you're looking for expertise in the Philippines, India, or Sri Lanka, Teamified has you covered. What's amazing is that Teamified uses a blend of AI and human expertise to cut hiring times by 50%, cent. The platform handles everything from automated onboarding to day-to-day management and even performance tracking. You can also handle rewards and recognition, buy equipment, and order training all through their platform. Simplify your hiring process and get the best talent fast with Teamified. Check them out now and transform your team. Go to dayone.fm/teamified. That's dayone.fm/teamified. Thank you, T-E-A-M-I-F-I-E-D, and get started today. Hi, I'm Adam Spencer, founder of the Day One Network, which is bringing the history of the Australian startup ecosystem to you. I believe in founders. It's why I do everything I do at Day One and our media company, W2D1 Media. And that's why the Day One Network exists, to create helpful content for founders. We've got some great shows in development, but a large part of what we do couldn't be done without support from our partners and sponsors. And I couldn't be happier than to be working with NTP, who get community better than any other technology recruitment company out there. A Newcastle company like mine, NTP are invested in seeing the growth of the local tech community in Newcastle, Sydney, and more broadly Australia. So thank you, NTP, for helping us bring helpful content to founders and the startup community in Australia. Back to the interview. Hi, I'm Adam Spencer, founder of the Day One Network, which is bringing the history of the Australian startup ecosystem to you. I believe in founders. It's why I do everything I do at Day One and our media company, W2D1 Media. And that's why the Day One Network exists, to create helpful content for for founders. We've got some great shows in development, but a large part of what we do couldn't be done without support from our partners and sponsors. And I couldn't be happier than to be working with NTP, who get community better than any other technology recruitment company out there. A Newcastle company like mine, NTP are invested in seeing the growth of the local tech community in Newcastle, Sydney, and more broadly Australia. So thank you, NTP, for helping us bring helpful content to founders and the startup community in Australia. Back to the interview. Hi, I'm Adam Spencer and welcome to Day One, the podcast that spotlights Australian startups, founders, and the organizations that empower Australian entrepreneurship. We go back to the beginning to tell the story of Australia's most inspiring founders and how they built their companies. You're listening to a special interview series as part of a documentary W2D1 is producing about the history of the Australian startup ecosystem. This episode was conducted by guest host Alex Carpenter. On the episode today, we have—

3:22 Andrew Nunn: My name's Andrew Nunn. I'm South Australia's Chief Entrepreneur and pretty damn excited to be part of the work that's happening here in South Australia. I'm an engineer by training and, I've set up a consulting engineering company over a number of years, but my focus is now sort of stepping out of that a bit more and getting more into the startup ecosystem and providing support and help to the government and to the companies who really want to drive it forward here in Adelaide. And how we do that best and most efficiently is where I'm at.

3:54 Speaker C: When would you say you started getting involved in the startup ecosystem?

4:00 Andrew Nunn: Well, it's interesting. I mean, my first company I ever set up, although it wasn't a registered company, I was 13. I grew up in a working-class suburb in Melbourne called Pascoe Vale. And myself and my brother, by chance, set up a business washing people's homes, weatherboard homes. You have a lot in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. And prior to people selling their houses, they couldn't afford the cost of painting their houses and painting the weatherboards. But a wash normally did a pretty good job. So we thought, started just one or two because we were asked to do it. And then worked out that pretty quickly, if I went to real estate agents, they would take me to their customers and we set up quite a good business. So it was fantastic. It ran for 2, 2.5 years. And then my brother who was in the business with me, his grades started to drop. So Mum made sure we had to shut the business down. So that was a bit disappointing because it was actually— but it was a really good taste of just getting involved in something and just how—

5:00 Speaker C: Yeah.

5:00 Andrew Nunn: Not how easy it is, but a bit of lateral thinking to how do I solve a problem? And all of a sudden, connect to the right people and you're off and away. So it actually really whet my appetite. I guess my first, in 2002, I started my engineering company. I got transferred to Adelaide from Melbourne in 1999 and I set up this company called Soil and Groundwater Consulting. You know, it took me a little while to get established in Adelaide, but once I sort of got set up here, I realized Most companies didn't have their best people in Adelaide in the late '90s. If you had a gun in the consulting field, you'd normally send them to Melbourne or Sydney so they could generate more revenue. So I just saw there was enormous opportunities with a range of really good clients here. So I set up a business here in 2002 and sort of it's still running now. I merged it with a Sydney-based company in about 2014. And since then, we've got about 350 staff, 360 staff around the country in about, 9 offices. And so, yeah, so that was when I really, really felt like I built a business and bootstrapped the whole thing. So, it was a really good experience.

6:07 Speaker C: Absolutely brilliant. I mean, from those little seedlings of running around and cleaning houses to much bigger things. Back in the early 2000s, what was the ecosystem like there? Was there any ecosystem or is it just like you set it up and that was pretty much it? Not many people were doing what you were doing.

6:25 Andrew Nunn: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. There wasn't too many people starting their own business, certainly in my field. I mean, I had quite a narrow focus at that point in time. I was relatively new to Adelaide. I didn't know a lot what was going on in terms of outside the engineering, consulting engineering field. But what I did know is there wasn't a lot of people doing what I did. In fact, I had a lot of resistance to people saying, well, why would you do that? "You're in a safe job here. You know, Adelaide's a growing city. Do a good job here and then you can go back to Melbourne with a promotion." And that was the original plan. But, you know, you've got to be adaptable to these things. And when you just see an opportunity, you just had to go for it. It was just one of those things that was just so, so obvious that it just had to be done. But the ecosystem itself, I dare to say it was in its infancy. I don't think it had even really started in the early 2000s. I think Adelaide was a place just sort of finding its feet. Fleet a bit in the early 2000s. It was quite a smallish community. It had sort of lost the Grand Prix and all those things that happened around that. It was a bit of a downward sort of feel of it, particularly if you came from the eastern states back across. So yeah, just the move even to come from sort of Melbourne across to Adelaide was sort of seen as, particularly in Melbourne, what the hell are you doing? But that's what opportunity looks like. When everyone says no, that's possibly the time to say yes.

7:49 Speaker C: 100%. When everyone's saying no, it's probably a good time to start building something. I mean, what kind of supports did you have at that stage? Like, did you just kind of start figuring it out by yourself and learning from trial and error? Was there any support around you at that time?

8:05 Andrew Nunn: Not really. It was really interesting because I had to sort of fund the whole thing. So, I'd moved to Adelaide and I was renting a place in an area called Norwood, and I was renting a sort of a little townhouse there. I had a house in Melbourne because I'd always planned to go back to Melbourne and then, when I decided I was gonna start up here and then commit to Adelaide, I decided I'd sell that house and I used that money to help me fund a couple of guys to come and join me for 2 years. And so, I guaranteed them 2 years' salary, which with that and the startup cost was pretty much the cost of the house. So, I was sort of gonna be a bit screwed if it all didn't work, so, which is probably not a bad way to be 'cause it just makes you work that bit harder. But realistically, in my mind, I just had to bootstrap it myself. Yeah. And so, as I said, I used the sale of the house and the funds from that to help bootstrap it, support it, give it its best chance for 2 years and really work hard at it. But I had a very clear vision of what I thought the industry was doing badly and how we could do it better. I had really good relationships with my clients here and I basically went out with the mantra, "If you don't support a young startup like us having a go, you're just going to be left with the big boys and then you'll be—" Yeah. So all the things you whinge about the big boys being expensive and not listening to you and all those things, well, you perpetuate your own problem. So we're here with a whole different model. Support us and we'll continue to grow and you'll get a better outcome out of it. And that's, to be honest, what happened. Often the difficult thing of a startup is to make sure you get paid. And so we very much set up our business around going to the big people like BHP and Adelaide Airport Limited and Adelaide Brighton Cement and a number of really big companies and said, "Look, we'll do your work for you, but we need to get paid within 30 days." Because that's the sort of thing, cash flow, that causes a bit of a problem for small companies. So that was the real structure that we set up. As I said, clear vision, clear sales pitch, and then work like hell to deliver on what we told people we would do.

10:00 Speaker C: Fantastic. And I think it's that kind of grit and determination that's hopefully one of the characteristics that Australian entrepreneurs are known for and continue to be known for. But I'm curious on like when do you feel like we turned a corner? Like has the Adelaide ecosystem turned a corner in terms of like promoting and supporting this kind of stuff? Is there any point where you were like, wow, there's actually other people like me around now, this is cool?

10:26 Andrew Nunn: Yeah, it was really interesting because probably 5 to 7 years after I started and it was clear we were having a lot of success, I noticed a number of others in my industry do the same thing. Guys who who knew what they were doing and were sort of leaders in their sector and had enough experience sort of just pulled out and said, "Okay, I'm going to have a crack at this myself." And now there's— so in my field or in the engineering field, there's a whole range of sort of startup companies that have bootstrapped themselves and got themselves going. And in a consulting environment, that's probably not too bad because your setup costs are quite low and as long as you're getting paid regularly through your clients, you can probably bootstrap it and drive it. But the ecosystem more broadly, to be honest, probably from my perspective, It's probably been the last decade that it's really got a kick along. I think back in, what was it, 2010, 2011, I think BHP were looking at doing the big open pit at Olympic Dam and there was enormously good feeling in the city. It was a real can-do feeling. And I think that spurned a lot of people to go, "Okay, we can have a crack at this and we can have a go." There's a real feeling. Once you get a feeling of optimism in a city, it's amazing how infectious it is and everyone goes, "Oh, I can have a go at that. I can do that. If a big company like BHP is willing to commit to this place, we'll So are we. And so that was great. Only problem was when they pulled out, that sort of, you know, left everyone a little bit heartbroken for a while. So out of that was this drive, probably from 2012, '13, that really started a slow burn, but a continual burn to grow. And probably, what are we, going back about 5 or 6 years ago, maybe more, the Tonsley Innovation Centre was set up down at Flinders Uni down south here. And that concept of an innovation hub was really born. It took a while to get it going, but you look at it now and it's flying. You got Technology Park up in Mawson Lakes up to the north, which is fantastic. You got the Biomed Precinct right here in the city. And then most recently, Lot 14, again in the city. Now you got a whole range of other smaller sort of innovation areas set up, but it now is a real critical mass of innovation and startups really getting going. I mean, pretty much all of those districts are now completely full. Lot 14 is absolutely full to bursting. Yeah. To the gunnels and every time they look at building another building, their leases are already taken up. So yeah, I think there's enormous energy now and you can feel it. Back in the day where I told you about, you know, BHP going to go open pit, that same feeling is here now. This amazing feeling of optimism and, you know, we're back the right horse and we're doing really well. We're building innovation centers and people are recognizing it. We've got just this week, Microsoft, their space setup called Azure is committing to Adelaide and Nokia's coming here to set up. So, you know, there's just a lot of activity here at the moment. It's just a really good vibe.

13:20 Speaker C: It's fantastic to hear. It's exciting to see all the, how far it's developed since the early 2000s. I'm curious on like, there's a lot of stuff going on there that you've just mentioned.

13:30 Adam Spencer: Yeah.

13:31 Speaker C: How on earth do you define, you know, how do you define that umbrella that captures all of that stuff, all of that energy, and all those different environments and ecosystems and industries that is— we're calling the startup ecosystem. How do you actually, you know, put a ring around all that?

13:50 Andrew Nunn: Well, it's a really— that's a really good question because it's developing reasonably rapidly. And, and actually, one of the things I'm, I'm looking at here working with the department is really looking at how we map this better, uh, how we have a much more ability to visualize who's who in the ecosystem because really big on that concept of collaborating and getting people to work together and the ability to see who's doing what in an ecosystem not only allows for that level of collaboration to happen across the city, but it also enables the population of Adelaide to get involved and to see what is really happening in their city. And that's the sort of thing that continues to drive that excitement and hopefully ultimately the investment in what's happening. I think once you grab a city in itself to be really engaged with what's happening in the ecosystem, then it all sort of keeps moving. But to answer your question, it's really an issue of trying to keep a profile and a process of who is exactly doing what, having them come back and talk to the various startup hubs and the various innovation districts so we can sort of map who's doing what. But as I said, the issue for me is how do I, get the best value out of that? How do I find out what are the issues that each of these startups needs to go to the next stage to scale up? Now they all need customers and ultimately they'll all need capital, but at different times they also need, as I said, this concept of collaboration. How do they make their startup better by collaborating with the guy over here or the girl over there and who are doing something amazing and that would really augment what they're doing to make their startup even more robust, even more scalable? And so that's the role of the chief entrepreneur. Entrepreneur in a way is to advise government, how do we do this better? How does government set policies around how we keep an eye on who's doing what and how they do it more efficiently, how they do it so they can scale up and scale up here in Adelaide and how they do it so they can hire people, create jobs, create businesses and create wealth here. And so, that's the real focus of it from my perspective at the moment, what advice I need to give to government to make sure that they can have the most targeted commitment and targeted engagement with the startup community that gives the best bang for its buck.

16:11 Speaker C: And that leads on to a really important point, I suppose, like from the government's perspective and I suppose from your perspective, like what's their role in this ecosystem? What thing do they uniquely have to do in order for this thing to really get up and fly?

16:29 Andrew Nunn: It's a really good question. I think government needs to support with infrastructure. I think that's fundamental. I think building the innovation districts and building the communication networks between the districts and setting up a framework for how people can engage with each other is certainly the government's role. Enticing and encouraging other companies to come to engage with various sections of the startup community is also government's role. I think though, We've got to be careful to make everything government's role. I think there's a whole issue there around, as I said before, about engaging the broader community in this innovation and entrepreneurship journey because it is a statewide, citywide thing. We need everybody to feel part of this so that their kids and their grandkids think, "Yeah, we'll set up our business here in Adelaide because it's got the level of connectedness between the various innovation districts is great." You know, a city of 1.2, 1.3 million people, it's perfect size to do pretty much anything we want to do. You're 15, 20-minute train trip to each of the innovation districts. So the degree of connectedness around this is what the government can help coordinate. And then it's really up for the community and the innovators themselves and all the startup companies to really build on that, I guess, infrastructure network and really start to fill it out.

17:55 Adam Spencer: Yeah.

17:55 Andrew Nunn: And universities play a key role there too, right? So a lot of the work coming out of the research and startups out of the universities really needs to be targeted in such a way that the groups coming out have got the best chance of commercialization, the best chance of success, and that they understand how to run a business. So when they do get some capital, they know how to deal with it, how to deploy it, how to manage it. So government has key infrastructure roles and key connection roles for national and global connection for companies. But realistically, I don't want to obfuscate the need for individuals to really step up and really work hard because the reality is setting up a startup is hard work. It requires an enormous amount of dogged determination and just keep pushing through all the barriers and, you know, a lot of, a lot of shoe leather to find capital if you need it, to find customers where you need them. So it all takes time. But the government needs to do some of the role, but not all of the role. And we just gotta move away from that feeling that the government needs to do everything because it's— not only is it not sustainable, but it doesn't build a strong, robust ecosystem of people who are having a go. So yeah, my view very much is the government builds some infrastructure and then lets the ecosystem drive itself.

19:20 Speaker C: Yeah, totally. I love that. And if we conceive of the whole ecosystem as a team and then we think that, you know, we're only as strong as the weakest player on our team, I'll give you the hard question. Who's the weakest player in Adelaide?

19:37 Andrew Nunn: Hmm. Well, I think our biggest issue in Adelaide at this point, from my perspective, is probably how we get the collaboration happening together, how we continue to drive that interconnectedness of people. I mean, it's an ecosystem. In a system that's growing and growing really rapidly. It's how you keep the community engagement, how you keep the engagement between the various players. But fundamentally, my view for Adelaide is we need to really not try and be all things to all people. I have very much a national view of what we should be doing. We should play to our strengths, whether that be geographical, geological, or a political advantage that we have over everyone else. Well, they're the things that we should be pushing for and they're the things that we should be driving for us. We shouldn't be trying to do everything that every other state is doing. And so that takes a bit of discipline too, is really going, okay, look, our key focus area is going to be defence and cybersecurity and space where we have natural advantages. You know, we have natural advantages in mining and renewable energy and a whole range of these things. So let's focus on that and let's do that better than anyone else. So if anyone, for instance, has got a space startup, they say, "I'm going to Adelaide because that is where the National Centre of the Space Agency is. That's where all these startup companies are happening, building their satellites and microsatellites. This is where Microsoft is and this is where a lot of the driving's happening in that space industry." And so that all takes time and we're moving forward with that really well. I'm really—

21:13 Adam Spencer: Yeah.

21:14 Andrew Nunn: We don't have a weakest link per se, we just have a system that's growing. Look, the government's committed an enormous amount of money to both infrastructure and funding to set up grant programs for startups, grant programs for scale-ups and commercialization. So I think the framework's all there, and I think because we've done that so well, I think you're seeing the global recognition of what's happening here. And I think you'll see a lot more startups sort of getting in here. So the next big issue, and it's probably a big issue for everyone, probably even Sydney, but outside Sydney more so, is getting access to capital and getting enough VC interest in what's happening in other states. So that's a real driver for us at the moment, and that's a real focus of where we go next.

22:04 Speaker C: I'm curious on like if you have any, you know, opinion on the startup ecosystem that, you know, you've shared with a couple of people and you find that that's a bit on the nose, like it's a bit unpopular at the moment to have that opinion. Is there something there that you see that others don't?

22:26 Andrew Nunn: Well, as I said, a lot of people don't necessarily believe we should be doing just the things that we're good at. We should be trying to do everything. I mean, my view is If you've got enormous, endless amounts of capital and endless amounts of startups and an enormous amount of engagement capacity, great, let's do everything. But we are a state of 1.3 million people, and so playing to our strengths at this point in time and at this stage of our journey in the development of ecosystem, I just think it's a much safer road for us. And just picking out the things that we do better than anyone else. I just think that's— if we had endless resources, great, let's do everything. But but we don't. And so let's just play our role in the national innovation, you know, the Team Australia type approach to the startup ecosystem and let's do our bit better than anyone else. And that's not necessarily a consistent view all across. The other one is how we engage VCs and how we generate more capital. The view I have is that we need a fair bit of patient risk capital coming out of private industry and private people, high net worths here in, in Adelaide, that the money's there, that people need to understand, in my mind, you know, that investing in startups is a legitimate part of any portfolio and that a small amount of money invested in higher, early-stage, higher-risk startups, but high-return startups, is a really, you know, legitimate investment proposition. So I just think it's fundamental that we bring the community along with the development of this ecosystem and that they all feel part of it. This concept that there's not enough jobs here for my kids and grandkids. Well, maybe let's not sit on our capital and let's invest it in startups so that we can build all these jobs for our kids and grandkids. So I just think there's a responsibility to high net worths and people who have done well to reinvest back into the startup community and drive it. Look, probably up till the start of this year when I took over the role, I had virtually no investment in startups and now I've probably deployed probably $3 to $4 million into startups over the last 6 months, including the purchase of Australian fashion labels that was in receivership here because myself and a number of like-minded individuals thought, look, we just can't afford to start to lose things like fashion industries and creative industries that have taken years and years and years to build and that we need to step up and get involved and support them. So I'm sort of putting my money where my mouth is and getting involved in the system. And not only is it an enormous amount of fun in understanding startups and talking to the guys kicking these businesses off and looking at the world in a completely different way, solving problems that, you know, a lot of us hadn't even thought of yet. It's a legitimately good financial investment that every decent portfolio should have some of that in it.

25:23 Speaker C: Couldn't agree more. I'm fascinated, though. You said that prior to starting in the role that you're in, you hadn't deployed capital into the investment scene. And it's— you might be falling into that category that I do of we're not sophisticated enough.

25:39 Andrew Nunn: Yeah.

25:39 Speaker C: But I'm curious on like from your discussions and your experience now, what are the barriers? Like why aren't people in this space more? And what should we be doing to attract them into it?

25:52 Andrew Nunn: Yeah, it's a really interesting point because I I think through my role of Chief Entrepreneur, I get to talk to a whole lot of people. I get to see what people are doing and the way they're thinking and a number of them, particularly young people, see the world. But they're not only young people. You got a lot of guys here who've had a career doing something else, have identified a problem and gone, "I'm gonna go and fix that. And I'm gonna get some money through a series of mates and we're gonna go and solve that problem." And so there's quite a lot of that. I think you need to bring the community along and it needs to— funds that spread the risk over startups. And so I can invest in a fund that's spread over a number of startups because not every startup's going to scale and be a unicorn, obviously. And so the ability to spread over a range, I think, is really important. And so, you know, we're having discussions here about startup funds and how do we make funding available or funds available, investable funds available for mom and dad investors to get involved and be part of the ecosystem. But it goes back to a bit of what I said before, you know, you can't be what you can't see. You know, it's really important that we have some map of who's doing what. And if I wanted to invest in the space sector, what are the 5 or 6 companies that are, or maybe there's 20 companies that I should be looking at to invest in at this stage to be part of that journey? And I just think that ability to see that and to work out how to be part of that is really important. I think there's a leadership point here though for, look, I'd like to say for super funds and again, other really successful high net worth people to say, you know, I'm gonna put some money into startups because I think it's fundamentally important, one, for the community, two, for the state and the city, and three, for me as an investor to have a broader spread across a whole range of investment opportunities and startups and scale-ups are a really significant part of that in terms of— significant in the sense that they have potential to have, you know, 10, 20, 100 times return on capital, but they also have the chance of failure. So you don't want your entire investment portfolio to be in it, but it's certainly appropriate to have some of it in there. And I think if we could get that through the community, both here in Adelaide and more broadly across Australia, I think you'll find the whole —ecosystem nationally will just go from strength to strength. And, you know, it's that concept of just greater access to patient risk capital is just really important.

28:26 Speaker C: Totally agree. I think we are starting to see that move a little bit, but so much more work to be done in that space for sure. I mean, if, if I imagine you get this all the time, as, as with that title of Chief Entrepreneur, like when the first, you know, the buddling of an entrepreneur comes to you and asks you, what's the one thing, what's the elevator 30 seconds of this is the wisdom that I can give you that will budge you into the right direction? What do you say?

29:00 Andrew Nunn: Well, for a lot of people, I always say trust your gut because there's a reason you're doing what you're doing. The easiest path is probably not to do it, you know, to go and work for somebody else. But it's like telling a painter not to paint, you know, they just have to. Or a musician not to make music, they just have to. And people who are entrepreneurial have to do the same thing. They see a problem and they need to fix it. So I say to the people, trust your gut and really, really be clear on why you're doing it and what your purpose is because that vision will be challenged at times. You will wonder whether you're on the right path. You need to be true to what you were doing and why you were doing it. Be agile, yes, be able to adjust your thinking, but don't lose— Yeah. The vision that you had and the reason you did it because it's easy to do when you're in the mire of it all. It's easy to not know which way's up. So have a really clear compass on why you did it. The other thing, and I didn't do this as much in my first startup, but I do it now in almost every way I invest now, is I invest alongside people. Doing it yourself is exhausting and hard work. You know, they say it's lonely at the top and it genuinely is. Yeah. But I think the journey is a lot more enjoyable when you've got people to share it with. You've got people to get their thoughts. You get a range of different views of people who are as committed to you as to the outcome, but have a different way of looking at it. And I just think it's really important to collaborate with people, to have partners along the way, and to make sure you're all taking the opportunity as it's presented being agile enough to think about, are we exactly on the right path, but not losing the vision as you're going through it.

30:44 Speaker C: Fantastic, absolutely love that. Thank you so much for all your time. The last question is the cover-all of, you know, if there's anything else you want to put on the record to speak to the nation and to encapsulate the startup ecosystem to help us to go towards the right path You know, is there anything else you want to add into this narrative?

31:07 Andrew Nunn: Well, I'd love to have South Australia play its role in a broader Team Australia process. I'd love to see Australia not consumed by competition internally and to really focus on the main game, which is external to our shores. I mean, taking on global companies, doing things together as a nation is where we've always done better. Look, as I said to you, my view very much is South Australia needs to play to its strengths, as does each other state. And if we do that well, I'm not saying don't compete at all, but I'm just saying pick the things that we can do and let's not cannibalize ourselves. Let's support what we're doing in each of the states to really drive ourselves into the global market. And let's really take our position there amongst the absolute leaders. Yeah. 'Cause I think it's only then will Australia really be the startup nation that it deserves to be. As a young developing country, I really think if we can actually get over ourselves enough to work together and stop our petty interstate rivalries, and COVID certainly hasn't helped with that, I just think we are so much better and so much stronger as a united nation really having a crack at it. Yeah. Of what's happening globally, and Adelaide has an enormous role to play in that. The ecosystem that is being built here through Lot 14 and Tonsley and the other innovation districts are literally world-class and a part of what I hope to be a national world-class innovation country.

32:43 Adam Spencer: I hope you enjoyed that interview. More interviews are on the way. Follow the podcast wherever you're listening right now. Stay tuned for more interviews with many, many more amazing people from the Australian startup ecosystem. Thanks for listening and see you next time.