Sarah Pearson on the importance of cooperation and competition

0:00 Adam Spencer: Let me tell you about our partner, Teamified. If you need to build a top-notch team quickly, Teamified is your go-to solution. They not only provide fractional CTOs, they can also do contractors and even remote team members tailored exactly to your needs. And whether you're looking for expertise in the Philippines, India, or Sri Lanka, Teamified has you covered. What's amazing is that Teamified uses a blend of AI and human expertise to cut hiring times by 50%, cent. The platform handles everything from automated onboarding to day-to-day management and even performance tracking. You can also handle rewards and recognition, buy equipment, and order training all through their platform. Simplify your hiring process and get the best talent fast with Teamified. Check them out now and transform your team. Go to dayone.fm/teamified. That's dayone.fm/teamified. Thank you, T-E-A-M-I-F-I-E-D, and get started today. Hi, I'm Adam Spencer, founder of the Day One Network, which is bringing the history of the Australian startup ecosystem to you. I believe in founders. It's why I do everything I do at Day One and our media company, W2D1 Media. And that's why the Day One Network exists, to create helpful content for founders. We've got some great shows in development, but a large part of what we do couldn't be done without support from our partners and sponsors. And I couldn't be happier than to be working with NTP, who get community better than any other technology recruitment company out there. A Newcastle company like mine, NTP are invested in seeing the growth of the local tech community in Newcastle, Sydney, and more broadly Australia. So thank you, NTP, for helping us bring helpful content to founders and the startup community in Australia. Back to the interview. Hi, I'm Adam Spencer, founder of the Day One Network, which is bringing the history of the Australian startup ecosystem to you. I believe in founders. It's why I do everything I do at Day One and our media company, W2D1 Media. And that's why the Day One Network exists, to create helpful content for for founders. We've got some great shows in development, but a large part of what we do couldn't be done without support from our partners and sponsors. And I couldn't be happier than to be working with NTP, who get community better than any other technology recruitment company out there. A Newcastle company like mine, NTP are invested in seeing the growth of the local tech community in Newcastle, Sydney, and more broadly Australia. So thank you, NTP, for helping us bring helpful content to founders and the startup community in Australia. Back to the interview. Hi, I'm Adam Spencer and welcome to Day One, the podcast that spotlights Australian startups, founders, and the organizations that empower Australian entrepreneurship. We go back to the beginning to tell the story of Australia's most inspiring founders and how they built their companies. You're listening to a special interview series as part of a documentary W2D1 is producing about the history of the Australian startup ecosystem. This episode was conducted by guest host, Will Cho.

3:20 Sarah Pearson: Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Australian Startup Series. Our guest today is Sarah Pearson. Welcome to the show, Sarah.

3:26 Speaker C: Thank you, William. Lovely to be here.

3:28 Sarah Pearson: So Sarah, you have a breadth of experience in innovation, spanning across government, private sector, and education, to name a few. What drew you to this space?

3:36 Speaker C: Gosh, I think I like having an impact. And the brilliant thing about innovation is that it's about having an impact. You know, it's all about having an idea, and I love ideas. I love the world of ideas. My PhD was in particle physics, trying to understand the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. I do love the fact you can take ideas and make a difference in the world with them. So I think That was what attracted me to it.

4:01 Sarah Pearson: When would you say that you first started to dabble in this whole world of startups and innovation? Was it through, say, an internship or—

4:10 Speaker C: Well, actually it was my PhD, but I didn't know it at the time. So my PhD was in particle physics. The experiment involved 500 physicists from 12 countries around the world, and we were collectively and collaboratively building this detector, to detect what came out of smashing electrons and protons together, blah blah blah. Anyway, the piece that I was working on was called the Central Tracking Detector. And because the interaction was happening so rapidly, um, once every 96 nanoseconds, and back then, 30 years ago, the technology was such that you couldn't actually keep all that data. You had to make very quick decisions. So you needed parallel processing. Anyway, we were using these microprocessors called transputers. Mm-hmm. That were a spin-out from Southampton University in the UK. So, little known, I had no idea myself that this was innovation, but we were using technology from a spin-out from university research right back then. And then, my next role after my PhD was working at McKinsey as a strategic management consultant and started to work for technology companies there. And innovation was all the thing, even back then. I don't want to say all the thing, it was something that was of interest to technology companies. And so, it went on. You know, I just wandered. My way through the innovation ecosystem, working in pretty much every part of it, but have loved it. I think the interesting thing for me was, obviously I love deep tech. I was a physicist, and so that application of deep tech was always fascinating. But later on, I started to think about using innovation for social impact, and that was when I joined the board of an entity called TACSI, the Australian Centre for Social Innovation, which took me down not just the, hey, tech's exciting and let's commercialize tech, but Actually, now, how do you use innovation and the principles of innovation to solve, you know, big social challenges, which later on led me into, you know, aid and how you help developing countries in the Global South, for instance, with entrepreneurship and innovation. And I found myself— a little side trip was being Global Head of Open Innovation at Cadbury. So, you know, how do you work with a global brand? It was a massive and fabulous, exciting brand to work with. And how do you work with that to drive innovation and work with entrepreneurs and innovative researchers and innovative companies to take stuff to market. Eventually found myself in venture capital, so, you know, how do you do the investing side of things and make decisions about what to invest in and what not to invest in? And eventually building ecosystems. So, how do you bring the whole lot together? How do you bring business, big business, small business, startups, entrepreneurs, researchers, schools, you know, etc., etc.? How do you bring all of that, um, together, which was a lot of fun.

6:42 Sarah Pearson: That's amazing. So far, it seems that we've been talking about innovation in a general sense. Like, as you mentioned, you've been doing physics and that was considered innovation. And then you went into management consulting strategy and then Cadbury, social impact, venture capital, and so on. How do you see innovation and what does it mean for you?

7:00 Speaker C: Oh gosh, I saw something, a description once, which was innovation is ideas applied for impact. And there are so many definitions of innovation and honestly you get sick of it. And I I'm even sick of the word innovation. Just recently in the last few months, maybe 6 months, I've been using the word ingenious, ingenuity, because everyone's had enough of the word innovation. And then people say, okay, well, startup is innovation. Well, startup is only one part of innovation. A startup is part of the ecosystem and it's, you know, someone with a great idea that they try to commercialize or make into some sort of a service or product that could be not-for-profit or for-purpose. I'm waffling on because— Innovation is a big word and the startup and the entrepreneurship piece is from my perspective, just a part of, a part of it.

7:47 Sarah Pearson: It's just one segment. And really the whole idea, as you mentioned, was ideas being applied.

7:54 Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. It could be a school. So you could work, we, as we were at the Canberra Innovation Network, we were working with school kids. School kids could have an idea and then they might want to set up companies. That's entrepreneurship and the startup piece, but you know, large multinationals could be wanting to check out how they're going to be paradigm shifted and thrashed by, you know, these startup competitors or these new technologies that are coming through the universities. It's just as important for large companies to be innovating, just as it is that there are SMEs, you know, small to medium enterprises out there who are, you know, started with one product, but then they start to move into new products. So they've got a product portfolio, or it could be a service entity that's delivering some social, change for health or education or something like that, that is also looking for new ways to achieve the outcomes they want to achieve. Or it could even be just, you know, business model changes.

8:45 Sarah Pearson: Yeah. And since you started doing particle physics back then, how do you think the ecosystem for innovation has developed up until now?

8:54 Speaker C: Yeah, so that was back in the UK, and that was a long time ago. The ecosystem then really wasn't a connected ecosystem, but there were, you know, science parks and things like that 30 years ago. And I still think that science parks and new precincts are incredibly important because a lot of innovation is actually serendipity. So you need, you need that opportunity in those places and spaces where people can bump into one another and chew the fat and throw ideas around. So anyway, what about Australia? So I came back, so I've been in Australia 30 years. I went back to the UK for the Cadbury job for 3 years and then came back. In 2009. And, you know, I got so excited in the Northern Hemisphere about what was happening up there with innovation. I was so disappointed when I got back to Australia in 2009. And so I just made it my mandate to, as you know, plenty of other people did too, to try and help Australia to really catch up. Um, and so, you know, I did things like went and spoke wherever anyone asked me to speak, and I was in Canberra, so I just hassled public servants and politicians as much as I could, as did other people. And then within about 3 years, I started to go to conferences and hear people talking about Chief Innovation Officer and things like that. And I thought, ah, great, something's happening. And also, things were bubbling away in those days, you know, 2010, 2011, 2012, little startup spaces, coworking spaces. Wasn't much around the sort of nascent accelerators. But certainly a bunch of programs to help people with ideas, really early stuff. So there were bits and pieces, a few little venture capital funds bumbling along. And from my perspective, when Malcolm Turnbull did his piece in 2015, it was almost like it put rocket fuel in us.

10:39 Sarah Pearson: Hmm.

10:40 Speaker C: It was like someone said to the innovation ecosystem, hey, okay, you're valid, off you go, here's some programs to help. But also you're just, you're valid. This is what we want Australia to do. And so I saw a massive acceleration then. Which was really good. It was based on humans that were doing it anyway, plus others that jumped in because there was money around. But, you know, it just gave a lot more momentum. And I think that momentum has been growing and growing over the years ever since. I mean, it was a shame that it all fell apart somewhat when Malcolm finished his time. It's certainly, from my perspective, slowed down politically since then. But people have still been going on with it. I sort of feel—

11:20 Adam Spencer: Mm-hmm.

11:20 Speaker C: Right now, there are, in certain parts of Australia, it's really well connected and humming. I'm really proud of what they're doing in Canberra. They were ranked 3rd city in the world for innovation just recently on one of the things, thingies, and anyway, blah, blah, blah. So, they're doing a really good job. I think Hunter, they're doing a really great job of building a connected ecosystem. I've seen a bunch of them really springing up across Queensland, which is really fantastic. Obviously there's been a lot of money and energy thrown at this within Victoria and Melbourne and Sydney in particular. I think we're beginning to get more of a connected collaborative ecosystem than we've had in the past. I do think though, we've lost a bit of our oomph.

12:05 Sarah Pearson: That's very interesting. And there are a couple of things that you talked about that I wanna touch on. And the first is, it seems that innovation can largely be affected by the whims of policymakers. And as you mentioned, it really started to accelerate when Malcolm Turnbull came in in 2015 and helped the ecosystem there, but then as soon as he left, it started to fall apart. What do you think we can do to mitigate the effects of changes in government?

12:29 Speaker C: Well, I mean, the first obvious thing is to make sure that you're talking to both sides, to make sure that you're, you know, as innovators and entrepreneurs, we've got voice with all the parties so that whoever's in power, we've got some sort of a voice. I feel that we've got to a place now where we've matured quite significantly To the degree that there are plenty of stories to tell. There are some really great success stories. I mean, unicorns are one, and we've got a lot more unicorns. There's some big stories like that to tell, but there's a lot of other stories to tell too. And I think that's something we should do much better at. For instance, there was a great story the other day about hydrogen in Queensland. Yeah, this is how you build thousands of jobs.

13:07 Adam Spencer: Mm-hmm.

13:08 Speaker C: And with examples of how it's worked, I think that's something we really need to get better at. The other thing is we don't need to wait for the politics to catch up. I mean, you know, it's really helpful if you have got a government that works for you. I've seen the impact of that in the Indo-Pacific. For instance, Vietnam is phenomenal, what's happening over there because the government's got so much support. But still, I think something we forgot about in Australia is that it's actually not about government. I mean, government absolutely has a part to play. Early-stage funding, it'd be great for government to step in. Government is a trusted partner to draw together the stakeholders within an ecosystem. So, you know, there's obviously export and support for that, but they're only just one part of the puzzle. And I feel that in some parts of Australia we're doing that well. So entrepreneurs and innovators and investors are stepping up, but in other parts they're not. So I think that's something we need to do more uniformly across Australia is realize that actually everyone's got a part to play. Mm-hmm. Everyone needs to step up and play that part collectively. So I think that's something we still need to do.

14:12 Sarah Pearson: What you mentioned about how it's not as uniformly, for a lack of a better term, successful across Australia. You also mentioned, for example, that Canberra was, I think, ranked third for the ecosystem. Why do we have such a discrepancy with some pockets seeming to do better than others?

14:29 Speaker C: Look, I will give a top of mind which is people. All these things are down to people, people, people. So, I think the places that don't succeed are places where they have a low maturity in terms of their understanding of how you run this with people. I think a number of places that try this forget that this is not a competition, it's a collaboration. You know, what's the BHAG, the big hairy audacious goal that you can all buy into and you can all collectively have your part to play in? Rather than having the one or two people who've got high profile and everybody else follows. Or, in some instances, there's just so much competition going on between the groups that they just don't get around to collaborating. They don't understand that actually if they collaborated, they'd achieve so much more than if they fought over the small piece of money or whatever it is that they're trying to get. Mm-hmm. So, I think it is, it's people. It's people who have all bought into what they're trying to achieve. And then people realizing that there's no room for prima donnas. It's actually all about everyone just getting in, pulling up their sleeves and doing their piece that they can.

15:41 Sarah Pearson: Yeah, absolutely. Collaboration and making sure that people don't compete with one another. Um, that sounds beautiful in practice.

15:49 Speaker C: A little bit of, uh, sorry to butt in, but a little bit of competition is fine. I call it collabitation. So when you wouldn't achieve anything without competition, but you need to be able to work out where you collaborate and where you compete.

16:03 Sarah Pearson: Yeah, definitely. And in theory, that sounds great, but how do we stop people from overcompeting? Is it just like a cultural mindset shift that needs to happen?

16:13 Speaker C: Goodness, that's a very, very good question. I, I think you do it through this BHAG. So if you, as a group of competitors, can agree on what it is you could all benefit from, So for instance, in Canberra, there were, I think we had 6 universities, research institutes, all collaborating to build an innovation ecosystem. Now they were in strong competition, really strong competition. And the thought of getting them all into a room and signing agreements, uh, you know, around money and stuff we're going to do together was quite unheard of. But because they realized that together, if they built this ecosystem for all of them, there would be more for them to be successful with. There'd be more companies attracted to Canberra so that they could collaborate with them on research. There'd be more support for their spinouts, that they would attract, you know, great talent to the city. So there were really important things that they knew they had to have and they couldn't achieve on their own. So you're finding out what it is that people can all buy into and they know they can't achieve on their own. I think that's, that can be a big help.

17:16 Sarah Pearson: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess it's the old adage of just finding the lowest common denominator and what can we work together towards?

17:24 Speaker C: Yes.

17:25 Sarah Pearson: Yeah.

17:25 Speaker C: I wouldn't call it the lowest common denominator because I'd like to think it's an inspirational, maybe the highest common denominator.

17:31 Sarah Pearson: A fair point. Sarah, this is very interesting. And so far, obviously we've been discussing the challenges on what we could do to improve. What do you think on the flip side that we have been doing great at and what makes us unique?

17:44 Speaker C: Uh, so I think in terms of uniqueness, we've obviously got some industry sectors that we're world-class in. Agriculture is an obvious one. Mining is an obvious one. And if you look at the areas that the government has chosen to focus on, they're all areas that make sense for us to focus on. Climate tech would be another obvious one, given how much we're impacted by it. That's all quite controversial at the moment, but it's a no-brainer for Australia, I think. And really disappointing that we have left it behind for so long, because we could be leading the world right now. But anyway, blah, blah, blah. We can still press on now with that. Yeah. I think we've got, you know, some great industry sectors that we have advantages in, and it's good to focus on those.

18:23 Adam Spencer: Mm-hmm, yeah.

18:23 Speaker C: I think people have found that challenging in the past because they don't like this thing called backing winners, but I reckon go where the probability of success is the highest. So, I think there's a bunch of industries that do well. The universities have really been giving it a go in terms of helping students become entrepreneurs and giving them a lot of support. I think there's some really good examples. Of that. It's not uniform across all the universities, but there's definitely some good examples of that. I think the industry growth centers in terms of places that industry sectors can come together and look at what the high-growth export opportunities are and how they collaborate around that have been successful and impactful. You know, venture capital has grown a lot. I remember, gosh, I think it was 6 years ago, I went to China on this Australia Week in China program. There's 1,000 of us that went, 100 of us in the innovation pipeline. And it was fascinating because we had $1 billion of venture capital in the whole of Australia at the time. I ended up sitting next to this venture capitalist in Beijing, and I cheekily asked him how much he had in his fund, and he had ¥100 billion, which is $25 billion Aussie dollars. And I went, "Ooh, okay, we don't have very much then, do we?" And that's grown a lot since. And I'm very proud of what we do at Main Sequence Ventures. I'm on the investment committee for Main Sequence Ventures, and we've now got about a $500 million, two funds, two and then two full-on funds worth about $500 million. We're investing in deep tech. So I think that's been a success. I love the space agency. I love what we're doing around space and spatial, that industry. And Enrico, who's joined recently, is a great leader for that. And there's some amazing entrepreneurs working in that space, you know, Gilmore Space. Yeah. Technologies come to mind in the Gold Coast. I'm very big fond of the Gilmore team. So yeah, I think we've got a lot to be proud of. A lot has been building and we've got a lot of hubs in the regions. I think that's something else to be really proud of. This isn't just in the cities, this is in the regions too. And there's some really great humans in the regions. I'm thinking of Liam O'Donoghue in Bega. There's a, there's a bunch of really great people here in Queensland. I'm thinking in Townsville and Cairns and Gundewinde, Rockhampton, really great people, and Gladstone, building those connected ecosystems. So I think we're making a lot of progress.

20:41 Sarah Pearson: What could we do to support us further? I mean, it seems like we're growing really fast here. Who bears the onus of supporting the ecosystem? And if it's the entrepreneurs, for example, what could they do? If it's the venture capitalists, what could they do?

20:54 Speaker C: Government's obviously challenged financially at the moment, but one of the things they can do is buy stuff. And I am not the first person to say this, government procurement could be a lot better for innovative Australian businesses. So I think that would be such an easy one for government to do in terms of playing their role. I do see that government is a good neutral territory for bringing competing stakeholders together to help them to connect and collaborate across the ecosystems. I think that's good. In terms of venture capitalists, I think For them, it's, it's a challenge finding all the deals. How do you reach in and find a deal? For instance, if you go to a university, it's very, it's quite challenging to go to all the universities and find out all the great stuff that universities are doing. I think we can make that better, that connectivity between university base and the venture capital base. I think the universities and the corporates could do a lot better at collaborating. There are some really good examples of great collaborations already happening. But I think there's more that we could be doing. I'd love to see us doing what's called strategic technology road mapping. The, um, Innovate UK, they were originally the technology strategy board, set up maybe 10 or 11 years ago, and they were designed to build these new industries as well as innovating in the current industries in the UK to inject innovation and new tech, emerging science and technology. And they do this thing called strategic technology road mapping, which is looking at where the high-growth export opportunities are, and then planning by bringing the triple helix together. So bringing big business, small business, research base, government, uh, supporters, investors, all together to agree what that strategic technology roadmap should be. And I think that can really help then give direction to those collaborations. So that could be done. I would love us to set up something like Innovate UK. If people don't know it, check it out. It does this strategic technology road mapping, but it also funds startups and entrepreneurs. It works with big business. And the research base, it's, yeah, it's just something I think we could really benefit from here in Australia. And it needs to be not government, it needs to be much more nimble and agile than government can do. Anyway, so that's, uh, that, I think. What else could we do better? I think the entrepreneurs are doing a good job. I mean, the Tech Council is a great example of entrepreneurs jumping in and saying, okay, so we can see a gap here, government's not doing everything we'd like them to do, so let's set up the Tech Council and work with the whole Ecosystem, and they've got a whole bunch of really great partners that they've brought together to try to drive some policy changes. So I think that piece is really good. And of course, serial entrepreneurs are really good at investing in new ideas. I think of Steve Baxter here in Queensland and the great work he's done for many years investing in the ecosystem. But, you know, entrepreneurs, serial entrepreneurs could do more of that and be great mentors as well. I think something we're missing in Australia is we need many more mentors to help these early-stage ideas.

23:47 Sarah Pearson: Do you have any unpopular opinions about innovation and our startup ecosystem in general? Something that you believe is true but others may not necessarily agree with you?

23:59 Speaker C: Well, I think the one when I said, you know, picking winners, that's been so controversial for so many years from a government perspective anyway, because I said maximize your probability of success. And you've got a certain amount of money. So that, that can be a bit of an unpopular one. I think my one about get rid of the egos and just have people in leadership who are almost invisible and who are really good at drawing people together, that might be controversial. I think that having those charismatic leaders at the beginning of our, of Australia's journey was really important because it was needed to raise awareness and get people excited about what they could be. But I think we've got enough people excited about setting up startups and there's a bit of a culture growing in that. But we need now different sort of leaders who are much more about the connected, collaborative, enabling side of things. And that could be a bit controversial.

24:49 Sarah Pearson: Mm-hmm.

24:51 Speaker C: Maybe another one is that, you know, I think the corporates should be doing a lot more than they are. And I think they should be realizing that Australia is a fabulously safe place to have staff and to innovate, that Australia is this amazing knowledge base, and I would love to see corporates really stepping out much more than they are right now to think about Australia. So not necessarily think about even their own business, but think about how do they make Australia better so that then their businesses can do, do better.

25:22 Sarah Pearson: Yeah.

25:23 Speaker C: There's another one. I actually think that the whole model of government needs to change because we cannot afford, we just don't have the taxes anymore to afford healthcare and social support. I mean, look at the way everything's going right now. So I think government needs to really change. It needs to, A, work out what its role is. Its role is not just to come up with program ideas that ministers can then go, "Woo-hoo, aren't I great? I've come up with this fabulous program or policy." and then tick a box and after you've had a photograph taken. I think government really needs to understand they are a piece of the puzzle, they are part of the ecosystem. They need to become a semi-permeable entity so they can actually be much more a part of the ecosystem and the ecosystem can be much more a part of them. So I think that could be a bit controversial. And I also think that government needs to really reach into the ecosystem to find people who can deliver the things that need to be delivered that they can't.

26:20 Adam Spencer: Mm-hmm.

26:20 Speaker C: And that actually entrepreneurs are better at. And here's an example: in Cambodia, there's a startup called 40K+ that delivers personalized education on iPads to students in schools in villages that have no internet connection. So don't tell me we cannot deliver personalized education in Australia.

26:40 Adam Spencer: Hmm.

26:40 Speaker C: It's BS. It's a big beast to change, but it needs to. And I think that would be controversial in some circles and not in others.

26:48 Sarah Pearson: I understand your point. And tell me more about what you meant by government needing to be a semi-permeable entity. So you mentioned before, government needs to buy more things. Is it just a matter of them needing to be more of a hands-on entity?

27:05 Speaker C: So back in the day when I was global head of open innovation at Cadbury, we were just moving into open innovation for the first time, which was frightening for a large corporate who thought it had to own all its ideas, they couldn't let anything out of the bag because then competitors would know what you're doing and blah, blah, blah. And in those days, corporates in FMCG sector had a very firm and strong membrane around them. You would not go outside of Cadbury and ask people for their ideas.

27:32 Sarah Pearson: Hmm.

27:33 Speaker C: So the semi-permeable membrane concept is, well, okay, there's some things you could go outside for. So for instance, we were trying to deliver flavor in chewing gum in a different way, rather like they do in Mr. Willy Wonka. You have entree, main course, and dessert being delivered, the flavors delivered at different times. We just couldn't do it with internal resources. We just had no clue. We tried and tried and couldn't do anything. We ended up going to a nutraceutical company that had this nanoporous silica that was delivering chemicals into the skin, nutraceuticals into the skin at different rates depending on the pore size. You could take that straight from nutraceuticals into confectionery. That was that semi-permeable, so you'll let some things in and out, but not everything, like Flake. You'll never tell anyone how to make Flake. It's these little leprechauns in Ireland with their silver shovels, and you're not going to tell anybody about that. So, you have to decide, are you going to make it, are you going to buy it, or are you going to co-develop it? Make it because it's so secret you want to keep it inside. Buy it because someone else has done it already, so why would you develop it? Or co-develop because it doesn't exist and you want to collaborate with someone who's got the expertise outside of your organization to do that. Same with government. So, you know, what is it you need to make yourself? Are there some things that are so secret in government, and you can think of plenty of those, that you just have government people working on it? Are there some things that actually someone has already made or could make easily for you, and you just buy it from them, so you don't need to develop it yourself? And are there some other things you need to co-develop? So, for instance, you want to develop some new platform to deliver some social service. Okay, go out to the startup community or the research base and work collaboratively to deliver that. The word collaboration there is really important. So it's a lot more than just the words that you were using earlier to describe what this semi-permeable means. And then on top of that, you need public servants to not just stay in their office. They need to actually be out in the ecosystem networking. But back at Cadbury, the way I described it was we lived in this sea, this ocean, this global ocean of ideas.

29:33 Adam Spencer: Mm-hmm.

29:33 Speaker C: Inside the company, inside other companies, universities, out in the networks we had, our suppliers, and government, I think, needs to do a lot more of that. Hmm.

29:42 Sarah Pearson: So in essence, it's just not having these huge walls up, would you say, Sarah?

29:47 Speaker C: Yes. Someone once described it as, um, drawbridges. You've got your castle and your drawbridge is drawn up. Well, get your drawbridge down.

29:56 Sarah Pearson: Yeah, absolutely. So if a new founder came to you, Sarah, going into the tangents of practical applications for entrepreneurs, Given all your experience, mistakes, and wins, what's one advice that you would want to impart to them?

30:09 Speaker C: So, I think for me, and this is me personally, purpose is incredibly important, because having a startup is really difficult. It's an up and down journey, and there'll be some wins and losses, and it's challenging. But if you've got a purpose that you really strongly believe in, it'll help you get through that. So, that's the first thing I'd say. To an entrepreneur, right? What's your purpose? Why are you doing this? As that'll help them through that. Secondly, my advice would be, okay, are you sure that someone really cares about this? Back at Sebring, there was a team there, Peter Adamek, who's now the CEO there, and Craig Davis developed this series of workshops around Lean Startup, and the first one was all about your customer. And, you know, even if you've got a nascent idea, no product at all, just an idea, they made you call up potential customers. And it was genius because, you know, before you go any further, you work out, okay, does anyone care? Would anyone buy this or use it? And it was interesting. The university researchers that went through this loved it because they just had no idea that humans cared about their research.

31:12 Sarah Pearson: Yeah.

31:13 Speaker C: Humans outside the research base. So that's the other thing. Does it really matter? And would people pay for it? And then the last thing I'd say is, okay, who is best to deliver this? From a whole perspective, are you the best to deliver it? And from a microscopic perspective of the pieces that need to be done, who should be doing them? What skills do you need to bring in to collaborate on or partner with, as well as what you need inside your team? So, forget about whether it's just you as an organization and think bigger in terms of the whole picture of what needs to get this to market.

31:46 Sarah Pearson: The last question is, not really a question, but more so a space for you to talk about whatever is on your mind about our ecosystem. We're aiming to reach policymakers and government, venture capitals, investors, entrepreneurs themselves, students. What would you say to them?

32:02 Speaker C: Look, I remember when I came back from the UK 11 years ago, I was just so struck with the amazing creators ideators, you know, the amazing ideas that we have here in Australia. We are phenomenal and world-leading in a number of areas. I mean, look at the stuff we're doing, quantum for instance. So, you know, the first thing on my mind is let's be really proud of the fact we've got these fantastic assets, which are all these ideas and people with ideas. And that includes people in sheds. I met this amazing guy outside of Mackay who was developing new technologies to cut sugarcane, which eventually is going to be so useful for new foods, new food production using biorefineries. And he's just in his shed out in the middle of nowhere, as well as the universities, as well as kids, blah, blah. We've got this amazing base of great people with ideas. How do we really make the most of that? And let's get behind all of that with a collaborative ecosystem. So for me, the big piece is how do we build these collaborative ecosystems that are open and accessible and people can get what they need when they need. And then the last thing I really want to say is that let's make sure this is inclusive. Let's make sure that no one gets left behind. You know, my work with DFAT around aid and helping countries in the Indo-Pacific build their innovation ecosystem was all around that. You know, no one should miss out on this global opportunity to drive new economies and high-value jobs for people. So absolutely no one should be left behind. And obviously, as a woman, A big piece of that for me is the gender equity side of things. So let's not treat it as a nice to have. You know, all the stats say it's going to take— a few years ago it was 75 years, now I think it's 125. Let's not live with that. Let's make some progress on that collectively, rapidly.

33:50 Sarah Pearson: Personally, what's next for you, Sarah?

33:53 Speaker C: Um, so a couple of, well, a few confidential things I can't really say, except that one is I'm going to be working with a foundation. To look at how we use innovation within foundations globally to help lift people out of poverty and break that poverty cycle. I'm really excited about that. I'm about to join a board that has 3 different businesses that are all being paradigm shift right now. So paradigm shifted by technology innovation. So that's— and involves climate change, mobility, renewable energy. That's— we're really exciting. I've also got Main Sequence Ventures that I'm loving, building, helping build deep tech in Australia through that entity with a great, really fantastic team there at Main Sequence Ventures. There's another venture capital entity that asked me to be on their investment committee, which is around food and agtech. I'm pretty excited about a global entity looking at scaling up health tech across the Global South. Should hopefully be announced soon. And yeah, blah blah blah, a bunch of different things, basically around how do we break the poverty cycle and what do we do about climate whilst having an overlay of all of that in terms of gender equity and inclusivity.

35:03 Sarah Pearson: That's amazing. They say that there's 24 hours a day, but listening to you describe your work, I don't think you live in a 24-hour day, Sarah.

35:10 Speaker C: I remember working that morning and saying, "God," about 30 or 40 years ago, thinking, "God, I wish I had 36 hours," and then thinking, I just feel them, so yeah.

35:19 Sarah Pearson: But how do you manage?

35:21 Speaker C: I make sure that I take time out. I think that's really, really important. I'm incredibly lucky I have a horse, and for me, the outdoors and that physical exercise is incredibly important. So I make sure I do that at least once a week. And working with people you enjoy on things that you feel passionate about. I don't work on stuff I don't feel passionate about because I can't get the energy for it.

35:43 Adam Spencer: I hope you enjoyed that interview. More interviews are on the way. Follow the podcast wherever you're listening right now. Stay tuned for more interviews with many, many more amazing people from the Australian startup ecosystem. Thanks for listening and see you next time.